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#fetlife

So this happened. 
SusanWright:  3 days ago   (Pastebin) 

[…] Plus an arrest is not an accusation.

Not to get all pedantic or anything, but…

An arrest serves the function of notifying the community that an individual has been accused of a crime and also may admonish and deter the arrested individual from committing other crimes.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/arrest

The main problem here is that Susan is arguing that if someone has been convicted of a crime, it’s cool to out them by their real name on Fetlife. But she’s conflating arrests with convictions. 

So this happened. 

SusanWright 3 days ago   (Pastebin) 

[…] Plus an arrest is not an accusation.

Not to get all pedantic or anything, but…

An arrest serves the function of notifying the community that an individual has been accused of a crime and also may admonish and deter the arrested individual from committing other crimes.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/arrest

The main problem here is that Susan is arguing that if someone has been convicted of a crime, it’s cool to out them by their real name on Fetlife. But she’s conflating arrests with convictions. 

“You, Susan , founded and are the spokesperson for NCSF. You take the incoming calls for help that come to the NCSF. You are responsible for the confidentiality and safety of the people who make those calls, and your words and attitudes will largely determine whether people will make that call for help.

You got a call - messages here on Fetlife - for help from someone who was being abused by BDSM partners she had left, who were using her public identity to damage her and put her life at risk. In response to this, you chose to support Baku when he intentionally restored that link, and contributed further to the abuse of VHR.

You are now publicly supporting outing the identity of people who have arrest records - not only conviction, arrest - as a general policy, using this case as your primary example.

I think it is important to know,that if someone who is being abused calls the NCSF for help, and they have something damaging in their past that led to an arrest and that the abuser is using to try to control and silence the victim, that if Susan Wright decides to, she thinks it’s ok, and she will use her resources and those of the NCSF, to support using that damaging past information to reveal the identity of the person who asked NCSF for help.”

Excerpted from a post on Fetlife by Wainskote

(Full text on Pastebin for those w/out Fetlife logins)

johnsnafu:

People are so mean. And sheesh, what’s with all the drinking comments? How many times does a bro have to say he’s sorry, yo?
Like I said in the OP:

Bullying and Calling Out People 
There is a right and a wrong way to educate kinksters, and calling people out in public is definitely not the right way to go about it. As a community, we need to be welcoming people and not leaving a bad taste in their mouths! #InsertSexualJokeHere

Somebody’s asking for the ban hammer. Booyah! Taste that.

Nice timing. Goes well with the article I’ve been quoting all morning:

That’s why it’s uncomfortable to have so many people insist that there’s an easy fix for troll targets, the “ignore the bullies and they’ll go away” fix, usually spouted by people who haven’t considered for a moment that the trolls may very well be actual people who are trying to protect and perpetuate sexism. West is skeptical of the ignore-the-trolls strategy:

In other words, when we ignore the issue—leaving trolls to twist in the wind—not only does it not fix anything, it actively hurts us. It poisons healthy conversations. And, more specifically, it actively drives women off the internet and out of the conversation and back into our “safe spaces”—which is exactly what the trolls want. They want us to shut up. They want us out of their territory.

Trolls want to silence women. When they are allowed to shout at you without a response, they have created a microcosm of the world they want, where men are yelling at women who are sitting there and taking it. This is an interesting point, though as West points out, trolls also “win” when they get attention—particularly with the “women won’t fuck me like I deserve!” anger mobs, getting negative attention from women becomes a sort of revenge for them. So it’s tough, but like sexual harassers, trolls know how to create a situation where you can’t win: Either you endure their harassment or you are a “bitch” for pushing back. Cultural misogyny works in their favor.
I would argue that people who are dogmatic on the “ignore the trolls” front—who are far disproportionately men, in my experience—have ulterior motives a lot of the time. Not that they support misogyny! On the contrary, I think misogyny makes a lot of men uncomfortable, and so they try to fix their discomfort by pressuring women being attacked by trolls to conceal what’s happening. From Mason’s piece:

Stella Creasy MP and Caroline Criado-Perez have been targeted now for days, together with other high profile women. They’ve been criticised for re-tweeting the abuse, instead of the strategy of ignore and block. Ms Norton says:
“I think there’s a good space for the re-tweet. I think there’s a really, really good space for saying ‘This is what I’m dealing with and this is what is happening.’ I think that it’s not something to be used in isolation, and it needs to involve critique as opposed to attack.”

I retweet trolls a lot (and then usually block them immediately, because I know that there is no potential for actual discourse here). I get a lot of shit for it, mostly from men. Every time a man condescendingly tells me, “You are giving them attention! Just ignore and block them!”, I hear, “Being exposed to the brutal misogyny you get aimed at you every day is uncomfortable. It would be so much better for me if I didn’t have to know this is what’s going on.” This phenomenon is not unique to the internet. Kids who get bullied get “don’t be a tattletale” from adults. Women who get street harassed end up having to apologize for making men in their lives uncomfortable by bringing it up. The intention is almost never to tell someone they are to suffer this in silence, but the effect is that you are telling them just that.
via Misogynist Trolls Have An Agenda, And It’s Not Lulz | The Raw Story)

johnsnafu:

People are so mean. And sheesh, what’s with all the drinking comments? How many times does a bro have to say he’s sorry, yo?

Like I said in the OP:

Bullying and Calling Out People 

There is a right and a wrong way to educate kinksters, and calling people out in public is definitely not the right way to go about it. As a community, we need to be welcoming people and not leaving a bad taste in their mouths! #InsertSexualJokeHere

Somebody’s asking for the ban hammer. Booyah! Taste that.

Nice timing. Goes well with the article I’ve been quoting all morning:

That’s why it’s uncomfortable to have so many people insist that there’s an easy fix for troll targets, the “ignore the bullies and they’ll go away” fix, usually spouted by people who haven’t considered for a moment that the trolls may very well be actual people who are trying to protect and perpetuate sexism. West is skeptical of the ignore-the-trolls strategy:

In other words, when we ignore the issue—leaving trolls to twist in the wind—not only does it not fix anything, it actively hurts us. It poisons healthy conversations. And, more specifically, it actively drives women off the internet and out of the conversation and back into our “safe spaces”—which is exactly what the trolls want. They want us to shut up. They want us out of their territory.

Trolls want to silence women. When they are allowed to shout at you without a response, they have created a microcosm of the world they want, where men are yelling at women who are sitting there and taking it. This is an interesting point, though as West points out, trolls also “win” when they get attention—particularly with the “women won’t fuck me like I deserve!” anger mobs, getting negative attention from women becomes a sort of revenge for them. So it’s tough, but like sexual harassers, trolls know how to create a situation where you can’t win: Either you endure their harassment or you are a “bitch” for pushing back. Cultural misogyny works in their favor.

I would argue that people who are dogmatic on the “ignore the trolls” front—who are far disproportionately men, in my experience—have ulterior motives a lot of the time. Not that they support misogyny! On the contrary, I think misogyny makes a lot of men uncomfortable, and so they try to fix their discomfort by pressuring women being attacked by trolls to conceal what’s happening. From Mason’s piece:

Stella Creasy MP and Caroline Criado-Perez have been targeted now for days, together with other high profile women. They’ve been criticised for re-tweeting the abuse, instead of the strategy of ignore and block. Ms Norton says:

“I think there’s a good space for the re-tweet. I think there’s a really, really good space for saying ‘This is what I’m dealing with and this is what is happening.’ I think that it’s not something to be used in isolation, and it needs to involve critique as opposed to attack.”

I retweet trolls a lot (and then usually block them immediately, because I know that there is no potential for actual discourse here). I get a lot of shit for it, mostly from men. Every time a man condescendingly tells me, “You are giving them attention! Just ignore and block them!”, I hear, “Being exposed to the brutal misogyny you get aimed at you every day is uncomfortable. It would be so much better for me if I didn’t have to know this is what’s going on.” This phenomenon is not unique to the internet. Kids who get bullied get “don’t be a tattletale” from adults. Women who get street harassed end up having to apologize for making men in their lives uncomfortable by bringing it up. The intention is almost never to tell someone they are to suffer this in silence, but the effect is that you are telling them just that.

via Misogynist Trolls Have An Agenda, And It’s Not Lulz | The Raw Story)

Got Consent? Part III: FetLife Doesn’t Get It | Disrupting Dinner Parties »

…FetLife wants you to believe their walled garden is safe, but not only can anyone create an account in seconds, the walls themselves are full of holes. The security problems with FetLife were put on display when last summer, a simple proxy connection service was set up to allow access to the site without an account. FetLife responded by trying to block the server and assure everyone that the bad person had been stopped, without actually fixing the security holes. This preference for spin over reality is commonplace at FetLife and its allies. For example, I tried to talk to Alan, Esq., one of the leaders of the NCSF, at CatalystCon in March about the FAADE tool. Instead, he went off on a rant about this supposed hack and how fishy a person Maymay was, and loudly declared he had no idea why Maymay did what he did. Really, I said? Because Maymay has been very transparent about it on his blog. It quickly became apparent that Alan had no idea what I was talking about, no any desire to educate himself.[3] Let’s be real. Maymay did this with the express purpose of showing that FetLife was insecure, all the while live-tweeting the event. This is how people who work to expose security flaws so they can be fixed operate, not how hackers opperate. But don’t take my word for it:

“Nobody ‘hacked’ FetLife,” says Yonatan Zunger, chief architect of Google’s social network Google Plus, when we explain the situation. “No locks were picked; someone simply noticed that FetLife never locked the door in the first place.”…


So I’m reading this rather quite excellent thread in a group here on Facebook and I start trying to figure out how to best share it. Figured it was a public group, so linking should be no problem. Turns out the link requires you to be logged in to Facebook to see it. Any login. Which I realized is the exact same level of security as most everything on Fetlife. For some reason that really tickles me.

So I’m reading this rather quite excellent thread in a group here on Facebook and I start trying to figure out how to best share it. Figured it was a public group, so linking should be no problem. Turns out the link requires you to be logged in to Facebook to see it. Any login. Which I realized is the exact same level of security as most everything on Fetlife. For some reason that really tickles me.

“FetLife is a really scary, creepy website, in my opinion, and merely requires interacting from one’s computer, so I don’t see it as indicating engagement with the wider community. […] To my understanding, one of the people running NCSF also runs FetLife, and I have seen ads and mentions of NCSF on FetLife. The way FetLife and NCSF talk about consent is pretty much the same, and that is – they both talk about consent as being mostly the responsibility of the bottom/sub/woman, or at least not as being particularly a matter of actually *not violating someone’s consent*. Most of the things I’ve read on FetLife about consent have been about how people need to stop complaining about consent violations, or wrongful accusations of consent violations. NCSF has the same focus when it comes to talking about consent – it’s primary focus is on protecting those who are wrongfully accused of consent violations. Therefore, it is equally if not even more plausible that a disproportionately high number of respondents to the survey were those who think the same way as FetLife and NCSF about consent, because those who do not might not even be on FetLife or take NCSF seriously, and those who do would be eager to fill out the survey to demonstrate how supposedly *low* the consent violations are. If anything, it might be in NCSF’s interest to keep the numbers low.”

Comment on “One in Three Kinksters Reports a Consent Violation” (via maymay)


ICYMI: I’ve released a Fetlife Export Tool that doesn’t invite search engines to index your site: export.agevitam.net
— Sebastian (@AgeVitam) April 14, 2013

About this tool
This is not just a mirror of Maymay’s Fetlife Exporter. The tool on this site is based around the same open source script, but there are a few important differences. I made this tool with two goals in mind: first, I want to stop using Fetlife, which means I want my friends to stop using Fetlife. Second, I want to force Fetlife to end their policy of obfuscating their security problems. This tool will help accomplish the first goal by helping people get around one of the main obstacles to leaving Fetlife: the desire not to lose their data. And it will help accomplish the second goal by A: drawing attention to the security problems that Fetlife is trying to hide and B: attempting to address all of the concerns, no matter how ridiculous, that Fetlife raised in their FUD campaign against Maymay’s exporter.

I unfriended John a few years ago when he tweeted a screenshot of his FetLife feed which had my & [REDACTED]’s & other people’s activity/fet names/profile pics. The image was publicly accessible on the web, & I promptly took steps to make sure I didn’t show up on his friend activity feed any more. I appreciate his site, but I don’t think he exercises the best discretion on his public web presence.

I unfriended John a few years ago when he tweeted a screenshot of his FetLife feed which had my & [REDACTED]’s & other people’s activity/fet names/profile pics. The image was publicly accessible on the web, & I promptly took steps to make sure I didn’t show up on his friend activity feed any more. I appreciate his site, but I don’t think he exercises the best discretion on his public web presence.


When I was contacting members who had seemed to have run the export tool, several of them had never even heard of the tool, and had no idea who maymay was. Remember - this was a week before this announcement from SusanWright, but we weren’t encouraged to publicly talk about it and threads on Fetlife Tech Support were being shut down.
Yes, there were undoubtedly people who used the tool knowingly, but when 40% of the people I contacted had no idea what I was talking about when I first contacted them, I am very reticent about putting this down purely to user error of judgement.
When I was contacting members who had seemed to have run the export tool, several of them had never even heard of the tool, and had no idea who maymay was. Remember - this was a week before this announcement from SusanWright, but we weren’t encouraged to publicly talk about it and threads on Fetlife Tech Support were being shut down.

Yes, there were undoubtedly people who used the tool knowingly, but when 40% of the people I contacted had no idea what I was talking about when I first contacted them, I am very reticent about putting this down purely to user error of judgement.


At the end of the day, two people went out of their way to screw her over, potentially placing her at real risk, and used Fetlife to do it. Many of us find it unfair that the punishment for that is disproportionate compared to the punishment of others for relatively minor offenses that have no real consequences.
The core problem, I think, is that the Fetlife TOU and its enforcement are primarily about creating a harmonious environment conducive to revenue, NOT about protecting people. This is why if you hurt someone’s feelings, expose problems, or call someone out on their bullshit, punishment is more swift and more likely than if you actually do something to threaten someone’s privacy or physical well-being. And it’s why following the letter of the law counts more than following the spirit of the law. Following rules provides harmony, following principles provides fairness.

At the end of the day, two people went out of their way to screw her over, potentially placing her at real risk, and used Fetlife to do it. Many of us find it unfair that the punishment for that is disproportionate compared to the punishment of others for relatively minor offenses that have no real consequences.

The core problem, I think, is that the Fetlife TOU and its enforcement are primarily about creating a harmonious environment conducive to revenue, NOT about protecting people. This is why if you hurt someone’s feelings, expose problems, or call someone out on their bullshit, punishment is more swift and more likely than if you actually do something to threaten someone’s privacy or physical well-being. And it’s why following the letter of the law counts more than following the spirit of the law. Following rules provides harmony, following principles provides fairness.



Looking at the KP today it seams all critical posts is removed while all posts angry at ppl being critical is left? I find it very disturbing if critique equals causing drama and if this is not just a coincidence with the mention of censoring the KP to avoid drama..

Yeah- it’s curious that “An Open Letter to John Baku” has disappeared, while”An Open Sandwich to John Baku” is still there.
Somehow, the posts calling him “our fearless leader” seemed a lot more amusing before he was acting openly like a dictator.

Looking at the KP today it seams all critical posts is removed while all posts angry at ppl being critical is left? I find it very disturbing if critique equals causing drama and if this is not just a coincidence with the mention of censoring the KP to avoid drama..

Yeah- it’s curious that “An Open Letter to John Baku” has disappeared, while”An Open Sandwich to John Baku” is still there.

Somehow, the posts calling him “our fearless leader” seemed a lot more amusing before he was acting openly like a dictator.